I suggest that there is a further line of thought indicated here: what are the necessary and sufficient conditions for the kind of life that can expand beyond its world of origin?
It seems to me that this requires the (probably rare) star-and-open-ocean origin (needs a catchy phrase for a name).
I suggest that there is a further line of thought indicated here: what are the necessary and sufficient conditions for the kind of life that can expand beyond its world of origin?
It seems to me that this requires the (probably rare) star-and-open-ocean origin (needs a catchy phrase for a name).
Life confined to water without a gaseous atmosphere won't develop mastery of fire or of electricity, at least in any scenario *I* can imagine. Without those, it won't develop mining, metallurgy, advanced tools, or spacecraft.
Also, how does such life further the evolution of the universe?
I am sure that many of us would welcome a future essay exploring this!
Best,
Jonathan
PS--If of interest, you might want to also explore the emergent DMT-verse; a domain in which PhD level researchers are now expressing confidence that there are repeatedly accessible dimensions with specific attributes. If correct, this would be yet another aspect of the evolving universe.
Good observations, and questions! I am extremely interested in this line of thought. I decided not to explore it in this post, because it was already too long. But I will definitely do so.
Yes, there are many limitations on underwater life. In fact John Smart (who has been very supportive of this project) has written about some of them. Here he is talking about that issue on Centauri Dreams, the forum for deep space news and ideas:
"So yes, many forms are possible, but only a few will be deeply accelerative, and thus dominate their environment, via competitive exclusion. Octopi could never reach our level even though they have two prehensile limbs and can build huts, because they can’t use tools and groups to dominate their environment. Water is too dense a medium relative to the force that can be generated by creatures made of protein. Cultural acceleration had to emerge first on land, etc."
So how life in the liquid water oceans of icy moons might further the evolution of the universe becomes an interesting question, in the absence of technology. I do feel that we have an air/land chauvinism that might blind us to some of the possibilities down in those depths. I don't think technology is impossible. I do think it would have to develop down very different channels. It’s a rich, complex subject, where I would have to speculate far more than in this post (which is fairly factual), so I’ll do it in a separate post.
And of course, life on icy moons and life on exposed surfaces may have very different roles to play. Maybe we are the ones who do the going out, the exploring, the connecting, and icy moon civilisations are inward. Maybe we bring them our technology.
I don't know! I would just be speculating. It's an area where I would need to think things through from first principles, and even then reality is too rich for me to be confident of my guesses. But please feel free to point me towards anyone else exploring this area, it does interest me enormously.
As for DMT, that’s a whole other world that I have not really explored. Again, please do point me at anything I should read.
Julian, If there's anyone I know who can come up with a plausible way that a technosphere could emerge amongst aquatic life, it's you. I'll look forward to your speculations! (I'm still waiting for someone to develop your ideas for "fire breathing dragons" into actual experiments! That really should be incorporated into some quality SF storytelling.)
Were such icy moon-based intelligent life to focus on inward development, I should think that, given the presence of the same biochemical pathways for production of DMT found in all tested mammals and certain non-mammalian animal species and plants, it is entirely plausible that such life would have access to it, possibly with the capability to concentrate it and even to titrate dosages. (They might have far more sophisticated control of what we call autonomic processes than do we.)
Perhaps the most visible researcher is Danny Goler. Here's a recent interview he did; significant as much for what he doesn't say as for what he does: https://youtu.be/NJp2rASRKMc?feature=shared
If you wish to converse with Mr. Goler, I have a close friend who's been exploring the DMT-verse and who knows him personally. I expect that I could arrange an introduction.
Powerful stuff, Julian!
I suggest that there is a further line of thought indicated here: what are the necessary and sufficient conditions for the kind of life that can expand beyond its world of origin?
It seems to me that this requires the (probably rare) star-and-open-ocean origin (needs a catchy phrase for a name).
Life confined to water without a gaseous atmosphere won't develop mastery of fire or of electricity, at least in any scenario *I* can imagine. Without those, it won't develop mining, metallurgy, advanced tools, or spacecraft.
Also, how does such life further the evolution of the universe?
I am sure that many of us would welcome a future essay exploring this!
Best,
Jonathan
PS--If of interest, you might want to also explore the emergent DMT-verse; a domain in which PhD level researchers are now expressing confidence that there are repeatedly accessible dimensions with specific attributes. If correct, this would be yet another aspect of the evolving universe.
Hi Jonathan, thanks.
Good observations, and questions! I am extremely interested in this line of thought. I decided not to explore it in this post, because it was already too long. But I will definitely do so.
Yes, there are many limitations on underwater life. In fact John Smart (who has been very supportive of this project) has written about some of them. Here he is talking about that issue on Centauri Dreams, the forum for deep space news and ideas:
"So yes, many forms are possible, but only a few will be deeply accelerative, and thus dominate their environment, via competitive exclusion. Octopi could never reach our level even though they have two prehensile limbs and can build huts, because they can’t use tools and groups to dominate their environment. Water is too dense a medium relative to the force that can be generated by creatures made of protein. Cultural acceleration had to emerge first on land, etc."
Link to the whole thing: https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2021/12/31/the-goodness-of-the-universe/comment-page-1/
So how life in the liquid water oceans of icy moons might further the evolution of the universe becomes an interesting question, in the absence of technology. I do feel that we have an air/land chauvinism that might blind us to some of the possibilities down in those depths. I don't think technology is impossible. I do think it would have to develop down very different channels. It’s a rich, complex subject, where I would have to speculate far more than in this post (which is fairly factual), so I’ll do it in a separate post.
And of course, life on icy moons and life on exposed surfaces may have very different roles to play. Maybe we are the ones who do the going out, the exploring, the connecting, and icy moon civilisations are inward. Maybe we bring them our technology.
I don't know! I would just be speculating. It's an area where I would need to think things through from first principles, and even then reality is too rich for me to be confident of my guesses. But please feel free to point me towards anyone else exploring this area, it does interest me enormously.
As for DMT, that’s a whole other world that I have not really explored. Again, please do point me at anything I should read.
Julian, If there's anyone I know who can come up with a plausible way that a technosphere could emerge amongst aquatic life, it's you. I'll look forward to your speculations! (I'm still waiting for someone to develop your ideas for "fire breathing dragons" into actual experiments! That really should be incorporated into some quality SF storytelling.)
Were such icy moon-based intelligent life to focus on inward development, I should think that, given the presence of the same biochemical pathways for production of DMT found in all tested mammals and certain non-mammalian animal species and plants, it is entirely plausible that such life would have access to it, possibly with the capability to concentrate it and even to titrate dosages. (They might have far more sophisticated control of what we call autonomic processes than do we.)
Perhaps the most visible researcher is Danny Goler. Here's a recent interview he did; significant as much for what he doesn't say as for what he does: https://youtu.be/NJp2rASRKMc?feature=shared
If you wish to converse with Mr. Goler, I have a close friend who's been exploring the DMT-verse and who knows him personally. I expect that I could arrange an introduction.